Maybe it is a good idea when there is a place for potential usecases for the pay token. I want start with a small one. Integration of the paytoken in the tenx merchandise store
Order the card with PAY xD
Everything is cheaper by 1.5% using PAY tokens as payment. Possible since tenx could just not sell PAY tokens to market when transaction happens and use those tokens as reward payout in next reward distribution. Skipping exchange fee cost of selling PAY durring swipe, and than skipping cost of buying PAY for rewards could save a bit of %.
Since there are no transactional costs of buying selling PAY and theoretically costs are assumed to be 2.25% for BTC, ETH etc, than PAY could be still efectively cheaper way of using card.
You can increase daily/weekly/month/yearly limits on card payments or for ATM witdrawals, all of them or any of them, paying fee with PAY, or by holding X amount of PAY.
You hold 1000PAY - your atm limit is increased from 1500SGD/2transactions to 2250SGD/3transactions.
You hold 2000PAY - your atm limit is increased from 1500SGD/2transactions to 3000SGD/4transactions.
You hold 1k PAY - Card payments limits increased by 10%
You hold 2k PAY - Card payments limits increased by 20%
You hold 20k PAY - Card payments limits increased by 200%
You hold 200k PAY - Card payments limits increased by 2.000%
You hold 2m PAY - Card payments limits increased by 20.000%
Free ATM withdrawals
You keep 5000 PAY in tenx wallet app - you get 1 ATM WITHDRAWAL for free per day (max 1 per month) - efectively tenx is paying for your withdrawal fee.
You keep 10000 PAY in tenx wallet app - you get 1 ATM WITHDRAWAL for free per day (max 2 per month) - efectively tenx is paying for your withdrawal fee.
each +5k PAY gives 1 more freeatm withdrawal per month. (150k PAY - 30 withdrawal per month)
To get 3 atm free withdrawal per month and daily withdrawal limit increased to 3000sgd, and card daily limits increased to 20k USD (10k pay) you would need 27k pay in wallet.
If you keep 50000 PAY in tenx wallet app card cashback increased to 0.5%
Paying exchange costs with PAY
You can pay operational costs/echange rates costs using PAY, after setting this option on (requires at least 2k PAY tokens in wallet) Your btc,eth… etc rates are displayed in rates exactly the same as spot prices on main exchange (duno what tenx uses, could define one, conibase or bitstamp, or kraken or gemini) or not worse than 0.5% difference from coinbase. Transactionals costs are paid in PAY rather than in mainwallet tokens (BTC), and cost is slightly reduced, so maybe rather than paying 2.5% or 2.37% or something, you get fixed 2% (2k pay in wallet) or 1.8% if you hold more than 5k in PAY tokens in wallet.
For holding 1k pay month or paying 10PAY per month, you can pay with your cryptos using unsecured values for BTC. Currently you get guaranteed prices by Tenx. So before you pay 100Euro bill, you can see that tenx says BTC price is 7000Euro. So sometimes you benefits if price change a bit lower at the very moment of your transaction, or just few seconds before your transaction. But if price of BTC goes to 7005Euro, tenx still deducts a bit more BTC from your wallet just as if they sold it for 7000Euro.
Would be usefull to try using this option durring generally bull market, and not using it durring generaly bear market.
20 PAY per month*: card fraud insurance
20-100 PAY per month*: health insurance (20 pay refund of medical costs ~2k usd, 100 PAY - refund 30k usd)
20-100 PAY per month*: accident/death insurance
20-100 PAY per month*: accident/death insurance
20 PAY per month*: access to lounge VIP rooms at airports
200 PAY per month: Exchange rates of BTC same as buy order book price in coinbase. Limited till 100k usd/month transactions
*Paid in advance for 12 months.
If you pay with PAY token as payment wallet you get 3% price reduction cost for hotels on booking.com … etc benefits.
Ofc prices, costs are just out of a blue ideas, and would need to by risk analysed, and figured what are costs/benefits.
Some ideas might not be possible, still they are just ideas.
I like moritari ideas but here’s another slightly different one…
PAY can be used as a charitable donation as part of all card transactions. For example 1000 PAY could be held in the app/wallet and a proportion allocated for donating to charities (maybe selected by TenX and opted in to preferred ones by the customer)
The reason for using PAY instead of another currency could be to segment spend and also maybe TenX could match any donation from their own PAY treasury so the charity gets 2x whatever the customer offered.
Once opted in, an amount of PAY will be deducted from each card transaction and the customer would get a screen in the app to show how much they’ve helped their favourite charity.
TenX being seen to actively help charities by customers being given a convenient option to donate without it really impacting themselves or the merchant.
TenX could even give all customers 10 PAY in each newly opened app/wallet which orders a card so all customers can immediately help charities without having to deposit or purchase their own PAY.
There should also be possiblility to buy PAY using wallet app funds. Like exchange 0.001 btc into PAY.
All crypto transfers outside should cost like 1 PAY.
If you hold 5000+ PAY you get no fee crypto transfers onchain.
You can setup btc lightning channel and pay with PAY for custodial access/services. That would include free possibility to move btc from onchain funds to lightning wallet and backward, possibility to create lightning invoices etc all lightning options avail. Maybe 5 PAY per month or 1 euro amount in PAY.
Possibility to internally exchange pay into btc and back to pay with 0 fee and 0 spread. Seamless 1 click exchange pay to btc and btc to pay. Using tenx’es fees/spreads which should be much better than just casual user’s fees using bittrex or okx.
- yes please, using PAY to lower the spread
- bad idea because we want to see people spend tons of money even if they don’t care about the “loyalty program” (more volume -> more rewards)
- good idea, would love to see if ATM withdrawals are collectable
- MUST HAVE but with steps to make it attractive to small pockets (100/1k/10k/100k)
- see [1.]
to silverfire: i’m not a big fan of charity donations (because you never know how much money will arrive), i would prefer direct donations to the vendors bank account
Carefully analyze “BNB utilities” because those guys at Binance are smart. For example: use PAY to spend ETH & BTC (or other crypto) with a lower spread on spot-prices. Paying for that lower spread with PAY fiat-value. Other BNB example: converting dust into PAY.
With limits in place you cant spend a lot with card. Currently it is 150k sgd/year (~100k usd) atm limited to ~10k usd/year. I would like to be able to buy 500k usd car using tenx card.
Somehow there should be possibility to spend more
There’s a good background article on Medium here about utility tokens: https://medium.com/@jellyroll505/utility-tokens-and-the-real-world-295c1f76472d
For the PAY token, I guess in the real world we need to encourage TenX card users to own some PAY. Not so much as it makes it unreasonable, not so little that they won’t actually bother. So somewhere in the region of $20 to $200 each perhaps. As a ‘utility’ token then PAY presumably needs to actually be ‘used’ for something. That could be in the form of ‘staking’, so keep X amount of PAY locked in your TenX wallet to get such and such reward like reduced fees. Or it could be in the form of ‘paying a reduced amount’ for something, so say paying for the card, or paying for merchandise in the TenX shop, or paying for transactions.
It is essential that for new TenX card users, they shouldn’t have to go on an external exchange to obtain a smallish amount of PAY needed to purchase a TenX card at reduced cost, or have $100 worth of PAY in their TenX wallet account to entitle them to reduced fees. It wouldn’t be worth their trouble to get the benefit.
So in order for PAY to become a ‘proper’ utility within the TenX ecosystem, it seems essential to make it VERY easy to get hold of for users of the TenX card. Users need to be able to easily obtain PAY within the TenX wallet app. It seems a no brainer to me to integrate PAY into the app to allow users to spend it using the card. Secondly, to allow users to convert other crypto in the app to PAY. That alone would be the start of a good use case for pay.
I think it is not just usecase needed, Accessibility to tokens is relevant as well.
Increasing accessibility to PAY is needed.
I would like it to be:
- listed on Binance
- added into tenx wallet app with possibility to buy PAY - MUST HAVE
- added into coinbase (i guess it is impossible)
Once we get some kind of exchange, even a simple one:
And if there is something more than just PAY and BTC, than you could use some fee system for buying, rather than just giving fixed rate. There could be fixed rate + fee. Fee could be paid in PAY to make fee a bit smaller. If you buy PAY using fiat, you could use the PAY you already got in wallet, or if you buy btc using fiat, or eth using btc, fees gets smallet - kinda similar to BNB but on smaller scale
Other things (more about app than just PAY token usecases):
You could move spare BTC rounded to 0.000001 btc to some charities or projects
You could describe your project and ask tenx to list it, in “list of project/charities”
Like you got 0.2 BTC, you spend 0.0002002 BTC, you should end up with 0.1997008 BTC so 0.0000008 goes for some project/charity and you end up with 0.199700BTC. You could also round to 0.001, than you would end up with 0.199BTC and 0.0007008 BTC would go to your choosen project/charity.
We could even make “let’s get listen on binance project” so we the users could just fund listing on binance.
Or lottery project, and every month 1 person is randomly picked and takes the pool.
You could also fund those projects/charities manually like pressing send 0.0001btc to (you pick from list the recipient of project/charity) and send it.
Overall it would be great to see adressbook as well. So i can Pay for my paid with btc or LTC subscritions rather than manually type addresses every time i send BTC using wallet app.
Co you could have various lists of adressbooks: like charity adresses, project addresses, and My addresses. Adding extra lists other than just those 3 could cost 0.5 PAY.
Creating repeated transfer of BTC equal to X in fiat could cost 1PAY for defining, and some pay for transfering (equal to transfer fee paid for onchain transfer). Creating repeated transfer of BTC equal to x.xxxxx could cost 0.2 PAY for defining…
We could also be able to fund our LN channels (custodial) or open them for receiving. You could buy LN 1000k USD channel open 24/7 and able to receive up to 0.15BTC (and send up to your BTC account balance) for 1 month, paying 2 PAY per month per 0.15 BTC USD of channel size.
So you pay 20PAY per month and you can receive up to 3btc close to 20k usd (using LN btc)
Price in PAY for x BTC would be changeable by tenx(in pay goes down or up, or btc goes up or down)
Shops could get api to create LN btc invoices, link accounts to wallet app, and just keep BTC in LN or onchain (or get is exchanged into USD or whatever currency they want in future). But generally they could use their tenx card funded with those BTC and pay for shops expenses using tenx card.
Would be great if tenx could provide (produce) a device which would calculate fiat value so cashier can just enter he wants payment equal to 20SGD and device would connect to api, and display LN invoice. Device could be preconfigured for shop/user and his address.
Ofc device would have to be bought using PAY.
It should be compatible with virtually all Cash Registers, and/or work as payment terminal. So price could be automatically displayed in device or entered manually by cashier.
(if tenx believes LN is something worth investing time and resources into)
LN wallet would be custodial so Tenx would have to care about keeping LN channels alive funded and active.
More or less confirmed use cases:
Here are the three steps I see in Pay-Utility. The first is just a basic, the second would give pay already an adequate use-case and an image as the currency of TenX and the third one would change pay into a popular digital asset inside the TenX ecosystem.
- able to use PAY for card payments like the other currencies
- rewards, cashback, referral commissions, or either things like a loyalty program or in-app-exchanges and fees are working with PAY
- get a higher card-status(things like “Black Edition” or different types of levels, whatever) and all thinkable advantages that can be offered for card- and app-use, as long as you hold a specific amount of Pay in the app - there were some ideas already posted in this thread - so that the cardholder is able to “level up” his card just by shopping with TenX and collect more and more Pay
So here’s my proposal:
The loyalty programme is (exclusively) based on the turnover of PAY transactions (so no horrible locking, or one-time payments). It is divided into several levels, which are achieved with increasing revenue from PAY transactions.
Precise, exact estimates are obviously difficult to make at this point, but I would like to give a few examples. In my opinion, one should move away from the primarily monetary incentives and consider that we are in the blockchain space. Think about benefits that can use the strengths of the blockchain or other “creative” advantages (e.g. status, unique selling points, …).
These are some of my examples:
Collectables (ERC-721, ERC-1155) based on payment behavior (e.g.: badges for payments in different countries, sales, locations) - Could also be traded at a later point in time maybe, dunno
Different cards (which can have also, but not exclusively the badges on themselves)
Quests / challenges (pay with PAY in a supermarket etc.) with special rewards (TenX Merch, TenX Events invitations) as well as long-term motivators like invitations to Singapore for those who pay the most with PAY etc.
In addition, one can also consider referring the whole thing not only to PAY. Are you a Litecoin fan? Generate a certain turnover in LTC and you can get the exclusive LTC card and badge! Satoshi’s version card for the BTC lovers etc… How would PAY be used? Well, every (special) card must be ordered with PAY.
The big question is of course how well this can be integrated or whether it is so feasible to send so many different cards and designs.
The main point of my proposal are tier/level based collectables and different cards which can be obtained by spending PAY or fullfilling quests.
I do like the suggestions and to imagine how it would work, but it sounds a bit like an interactive dungeon, it might be overhelming.
People do want some sort of monetary gain i.e safe in some form, make „money“- it is the most effective way to incentivize and motivate customers.
Certain benefits and achievements can be build around this aspect, but to incentivize is core - collectable cards, tokens, achievements etc are something nice to have, but the average user is not a fan of a service/company - he is driven by the service, the fee structure and how to safe money or financially benefit in a way.
Then we have a different view on the (potential) customers of TenX. For me people who might want to use a service like this right now are about identity (advocate of crypto) not so much about money saving.
Furthermore looking into the future TenX unique USP won’t be on-the-fly conversion anymore. Any competitor will have adapted that. How do you shine out of the masses? Offering the highest cash back and discounts? Sure you can do that. Keep in mind though, that TenX has an inherent disadvantage at that by offering a percentage revenue share to its TENX holders which can’t be used to incentive customers. They can’t afford to spend that much money on customer incentives. Happy to hear more opinions The more input the better for all of us!
What starts as a movement maybe, wont be that hip and innovative in the future anymore. People will look at its core usability and how it competes overall. Offering that dungeonlike loyalty program might work for us - the early adopters, but will not work with the mass. Creating heavy utility that becomes obsolete is neither good.
I do see room for these achievements and it does not have to be the highest kickback on the market to shine. It will be the entire service, how smooth all goes, customer support, brand and identity. It all plays together.
My point is - your entire suggested ecosystem is great, maybe just less overloaded. but collectibles are a gimmick and when it ultimately boils down for a customer to choose a product/provider they will compare the costs and the quality of the service - nothing else.
I agree with Asong here, PAY utility would need some serious demand otherwise the value will just keep on dropping. In order to buy PAY, people would need to feel it’s worth it to do so, and I don’t feel ‘collectibles’ or different crads are going to be that reason to all massively buy PAY… Same with instant support, I would expect decent support for a company that big, without paying for it.
Imagine you are a Tenx supporter in China, you bought in ICO 20k PAY, believing in the company and keeping said PAY throughout the downhill slope. You were told you won’t have any rewards because you live in China, but you keep your tokens because they promise to do everything to create more value to the token. What use do his 20k PAY tokens have in your case? And would said person be incentivised to buy more tokens? Because if not, everyone will just sell and nobody will be buying imo, tanking the price even harder then it already is right now.
Imo, you’re seeing the lock thing as bad, which it is if it happens in-app. But say if you do a daily random check of how much PAY there is in the ETH wallet coupled to the account (coupled by signature like TENX issuance), people would be in full control of their funds and can move them anytime they want. So I don’t see it as a ‘lock’ per se. But I agree much of the benefits they can give are already slurped up by the rewards they’re giving out. It’s a vicious circle really, give less incentive to the card users => less users => less rewards / give more incentive to the card users => more users => less rewards. Which scenario do you prefer? I prefer the latter imo.
They will find that that sweet spot.
I think the utility of PAY needs to be something that encourages users to use TenX services more. At the moment, the primary service is allowing customers to spend their crypto using the card, so PAY utility should encourage more use of that service.
So let’s look around, how do others achieve that?
Take the leading UK supermarket, Tesco, as an example. They have a loyalty points system. If you shop in their store, you’re awarded points on purchases. Moreover, if you use their own credit card, you get points on your total transaction volume. The points themselves are not really worth much, but they build up per quarter and then get released to spend. Effectively, points convert to money off future purchases at the Tesco checkout. Or you can convert points to other partner tokens at a better rate (3x) to spend on goods and services available from partners. For example, convert points to a restaurant voucher and they become 3x more valuable for buying food in the partner restaurant than simply using them to buy goods in the Tesco supermarket.
So how to apply this model to TenX and the PAY token situation?
How about offering cashback (as PAY) similar to what was in the white paper as a loyalty program to encourage use the TenX card and services? Does the legal landscape allow that - I think so? By automatically creating a PAY token wallet within the TenX app for every user (and why wouldn’t you?), whenever the user spends crypto using their card they receive some PAY cashback in their wallet as part of the transaction, a sort of micro cashback payment? There would be no actual transaction fees incurred by TenX to achieve this because it would all be done internally within their own infrastructure, just like for BTC and the other cryptos in their wallet when transferring between TenX wallets. So over time, users would gradually accumulate enough PAY to visit the coffeeshop say, or buy a (toy) Lambo?
But that’s not all, users could perhaps use their PAY in the TenX shop, to buy TenX T-shirts, TenX mugs, etc, and perhaps they could be offered a more favorable price in PAY than purchasing using other currencies? Like the supermarket example above, where if you spend points with specific partners then they become worth more than simply using them as money at the checkout. Perhaps TenX could make other partnerships too to use PAY in this way with favorable rates?
You could argue that customers would simply not care about the cashback because it sounds such a tiny amount of PAY they would gain per user per card transaction. I ask myself a similar question whenever I pull out my Tesco’s credit card (that earns a tiny amount of supermarket points) instead of using my debit card that earns nothing. Inevitably the answer is that getting something is better than getting nothing.
I’m not suggesting trying to compete with others offering high or unsustainable cashback rewards, it’s simply the fact there is cashback (however small) that acts as a sufficient incentive.
Anyway, my 2c.